Posts by Juan Viejo2

56

They are really begging for money again..

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

sorry i don't know how to post the actual letter but here is the text of it.

lol.

christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses 2821 route 22, patterson, ny 12563-2237 phone: (845) 306-1100.

Juan Viejo2

TTATTelder,

Keep us informed as to what is going on in your Hall. You might bring it up during meetings with elders from other KHs to see if any of them have experienced similar situations. The contact I was getting the information from was in the San Francisco Bay Area from one of the more affluent cities (he was not from Menlo Park). So maybe this technique on the part of the WT may be directed toward those KHs felt to be "wealthy." They may not waste their time using this technique on small KHs in Conway, Arkansas or Woodburn, Oregon.

If this happens in your KH in the future please let us know. Keep your ears open. My SF Bay contact seemed very credible and many other clues he gave me eventually panned out.

JV

56

They are really begging for money again..

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

sorry i don't know how to post the actual letter but here is the text of it.

lol.

christian congregation of jehovahs witnesses 2821 route 22, patterson, ny 12563-2237 phone: (845) 306-1100.

Juan Viejo2

TTATTelder wrote:

There is also something in place now that I'm not sure if many people know about.

They encourage congregations to keep any excess funds on deposit with the branch. They call it "Funds On Deposit". Our congregation has several thousand dollars on deposit with the branch. We only keep about 2-3k in our checking account.

The arrangement is to let them hold and use the money until if/when we need it in the future. So basically it is a no-interest loan.

That makes you wonder how many congregations have how many thousands "On Deposit" with the branches around the world?

That is correct. While this sounds like a beneficial plan for both the Kingdom Hall (safety of funds) and the Watchtower (more cash reserves available), the reality was brought to my attention a few months back when I was involved in researching the Menlo Park Kingdom Hall scandal.

In the past each Kingdom Hall would take in its incoming contributions and each month pay the utilities, pay for literature, pay for minor repairs, and cover any out-of-pocket expenses of the elders and others for supplies and minor items like flowers, stationery, Memorial wine and crackers, etc. A certain amount or percentage of what was left over would be sent to the Watchtower, as would payments on any moneys still due for construction or improvement loans on the Kingdom Hall. The remainder would be placed in a second bank account (often in a different bank) to be used as reserves.

With the new arrangement, most of the reserves would be forwarded to the WT and only a small amount <=> $1000 USD would be retained in the KH reserve funds.

My contact told me that something is not quite right with this arrangement. When his KH accounts elder contacted the WT and asked for $10,000 of their own money to pay for exterior paint and roof repairs required after a local RBC building inspection, the WT denied their request. Instead, they suggested that the local elders ask the congregation to increase their donations specifically for the repairs rather than draw down on savings deposited with the WT.

When he was having an off-the-cuff conversation with an elder from another congregation he was told that they had experienced the same thing. When they decided to increase the level of their local savings and reduce the amount of "excess" sent to the WT, they came under fire by the CO and DO. They actually had to go to a "come to Jesus" meeting about this and all got their butts chewed. The elders agreed that when it came to local bank accounts that they were "damned if they did and damned if they didn't when they sent it to the WT.

My contact told me that local elders who have been through this process know that any excess bank moneys deposited with the WT will likely never be seen again. The Watchtower will simply tell them to find other ways to gather up the funds they need and leave the money on deposit with the Watchtower.

I've also heard rumors that the Watchtower will have deposit and withdrawal rights on all local KH bank accounts. This may be in place now for some larger congregations. If that happens, all financial control of local fund will be assumed by New York HQ.

JV

739

250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

by nicolaou in

80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.

250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.

stop this #cult!

Juan Viejo2

I'm coming to this late, but want to share my own experiences with blood transfusion deaths of Jehovah's Witnesses. The time period was from 1951 to 1975 and in a relatively small geographical region of Los Angeles (Hollywood area only) and Riverside Counties of California.

I can't remember the names or exact years, but here are my personal connections to blood transfusion deaths and one near death:

When I was about 10 (1953) and in the Riverside (CA) Central KH, a young sister died from a hemorrhage. If I remember right she ignored what she thought was an excessive menstrual flow and became anemic. She was taken to Riverside Community Hospital, refused a blood transfusion and died within 48 hours. My family attended her funeral and the fact that she "faithfully" refused a transfusion was mentioned during the service.

When I was about 15 (1958) a young newly married couple had just been married and were returning home in a private airplane. It crashed and both were badly injured. The husband died at the scene and the young woman was rushed to the hospital with severe injuries. According to my parents (my father was a servant at the time) the woman had lost a lot of blood but could have survived her injuries - but refused to have a blood transfusion and died within hours. That too was mentioned at their funeral.

A young couple who were very close to my family had just had a baby. The baby was in her mother's lap when their car was involved in a front to rear collision. The baby was crushed up against the dashboard (this was before seat belts and child seats). All three of the passengers were rushed to the hospital. The father and mother had minor injuries and the baby, while seriously injured, could have survived. The parents refused a transfusion for the baby and it died within hours of the accident.

When I was 17, a JW mother in her mid-30s attending the Magnolia Center (Riverside, CA) congregation was diagnosed with a serious blood disease. Her doctor told her that they would have to completely transfuse her blood and continue to fight anemia for several months with additional transfusions. When she refused the doctor told her that she should go home and settle her affairs as she had less than two weeks to live. She died ten days later. I attended her funeral too (I'd dated her niece) and the story of her faithful decision was mentioned by the brother giving the memorial talk.

When I was 18, I was asked by a JW friend of mine if I could drive over the his house and drive his mother to the hospital. I remember their car very well (it was similar to the Plymouth in Steven King's "Christine"). She could not drive herself because she had just had surgery on her female organs and could not use her feet to push the pedals. My friend went along for the ride. As I remember it, we drove home after leaving his mom at the doctor's office because she had to be transferred to the hospital by ambulance. I'm not sure what happened, but I heard later that she had to refuse a transfusion and ended up in the hospital for several weeks because she had to be so closely monitored. I heard that she did get extra fluids and "expanders" to help her survive. I lost contact with them because they lived in the Arlington (South Riverside, CA) congregation and we rarely made it over that far. I count her as a survivor, but I'm not sure if she had more problems after that or not.

The last incident that I was aware of took place in the West Hollywood (Fairfax) congregation around 1968. I was not going, but my wife was still a JW at the time. I do not know the details, but I know that a sister who was a part time actress was taken to Cedars-Sinai Hospital in very bad shape. I thnk it was female problems again or maybe a miscarriage - but she too (or her husband) refused blood and died within a day or two. I did not go to the funeral and could not get off work to take my wife - and she barely knew anyone there anyway. But I do remember that the incident caused us to discuss what we would do if she or our baby girls was in a situation where they needed a blood transfusion. Being out by then I made it very clear to her that I would insist on our girls having transfusions, but she could make her own choice. I think my wife was somewhat relieved by my hardline position since it would be me and not her that would be held reponsible and end up dying at Armageddon in 1975.

So that is 5 down and only one survivor in a very small geographic area during just a few years. Some of those persons may have died anyway, but the point of the above discussion has been that "not that many cases could have occured over the past 50 years." 250,000? Maybe not, but I know that there were a lot of stories going around during the years I was a JW or associated that the blood transfusion issue was fairly common. It was a always a discussion during assemblies. As a teenager I often spent many sleepless nights worrying that I might be injured and die before I had a chance to have sex because of the no blood rules. I was lucky then and later in my life when I had open heart surgery that did not require any blood transfusion even though I was OK with having it if needed.

And I just remembered - we had at least 2 young hemophiliacs in our area. I don't know whatever happened to them but their odds were not good.

JV

23

Experiences With The Elders

by minimus in

jw
friends

did you generally have good experiences with the elders ?

we're any situations especially memorable???

pro or con.....

Juan Viejo2

I'd have to agree with gma-tired2. Growing up in the 1950s as a child JW, I thought most of the "servants" wanted to do the right thing and wanted to "serve" the congregation. They were typically approachable and helpful. A couple had successful businesses and would personally help less fortunate brothers and sisters by giving them a job, a loan, or a "green handshake" to get them through tough times.

I had an incident when I was 19 that involved a temporary dangerous situation and the congregation servant and his wife put me and my wife up at their home for several days. Treated us like family. After we left their home they both checked on us frequently until they were sure everything was back to normal.

Another "servant brother" owned a TV repair shop. He'd repair our TV for just the cost of parts and do kind little things to show his love. I remember when he got one of the very first color TVs in his shop and invited anyone who wanted to come over to watch one of the first color TV broadcasts on a Sunday afternoon. I remember that to this day - "The Chocolate Soldier" operetta.

Between the time I was 8 and 20 I always felt that the KH "servants" considered their job to be serving the flock. There were some notable exceptions. Richard E Kelly (author of Growing up in Mama's Club) and I were good friends in those days. In his congregation in Venice, California the popular and humble "Company Servant" (and we all loved him) was replaced for no discernible reason by the Branch office with a recently exited Bethel brother. Dick describes how the mood within the congregation immediately changed as this newly appointed "Company Servant" came in and started abusing the flock, putting everyone on warning and looking for almost any reason to DF or reprove many of the younger members. He clearly did not see himself as a "servant" - but rather an overlord and executioner.

Although I left the WT completely in the late 1960s, the personality of the servant class changed remarkedly when they began to be called "elders" and "overseers." You could feel the love escaping out of the Kingdom Halls as if someone left the front door open on a chilly day. Even the elderettes began to change from generally good-hearted gossips to judgmental busy-bodies.

During the 1970s and 80s the whole concept of elders being "servants" completely disappeared with some rare exceptions. Even my own JW family members would comment that "things have changed" because "some of the elders were too lax and were replaced with other brothers who were not afraid to take a harder line toward the congregation."

My last trip to a KH was a couple of Memorials ago - just to observe and try to blend in. I was immediately recognized as a stranger and "love bombed" by a young brother and his family. They were sweet people and a joy to sit with. But the elders? Preening and clearly self-important. They were cold and obviously suspicious when introduced to me. Two of them came over and gave me the third degree about where I lived and why I was there. I watched as they all walked around the KH like peacocks showing off their expensive suits and haircuts. Their handshakes were formal and unfriendly - almost as if they were prosecuting attorneys looking to make a case against me. They barked out orders to the young couple who "adopted" me - "Get his name and address and be sure he has a study book before he leaves." The young brother reacted in an almost "Stepinfetchit" way and immediately took me over to the literature counter where he gave me a NWT Bible and "Bible Teach" book. He was clearly both in awe and intimidated by the elder.

So yes, times have changed. When even my own JW family members will reluctantly admit that elders have become less loving in recent years, then you know why some Kingdom Halls are losing their young people and troubled members.

JV

63

Does Anyone Remember the "Around The World Assemblies"?

by titch in

so, being that it is 2013, i recall that it was 50 years ago, that the "around the world assemblies" were held.

for those of us who lived in southern california, the first week of september was when we had the assembly, and it was held at the rose bowl in pasadena.

yep, the rose bowl, with no seats, per se, but just those hard benches as seats.

Juan Viejo2

I was at Pasadena in 1963. My pregnant bride and I drove there every day from Riverside, about 50 miles east. That was before the I-210 went out beyond Ontario, so those 50 miles in our '52 Chevy coupe was a long hard drive. I believe the convention started on Wednesday and ended late Sunday. I may have attended one more district assembly after that (in Pomona at the LA Fairgounds; my wife was baptized there), but then I began my fade.

As described earlier, the Rose Bowl sits in the Arroyo Seco (gulch), and during the summer afternoons it is like a crockpot. No breeze, direct sun. I remember that the speakers platform had big movable fans and, of course, a large tent roof to provide shade. But with their suits on and the temperature in the mid-90s, that place was hell on earth. My wife was so sunburned that she peeled for weeks afterward and her poor nose was blistered. We were both wearing aviator sunglasses of the time, so both looked like reverse raccons for several weeks after.

I did volunteer. Of course, being a fit 19-year old they had me moving heavy trash cans from the tent cafeterias. Unlike previous conventions like the ones in New York in '53 and '58, we were not allowed to remain in the cafeteria tents that had a bit of shade and some airflow, but were required to return to our seats in the bowl. My wife was 6-months pregnant, so she managed as well as expected, but every night on our way home (the sessions went on past 9 PM) I was worried about her because she was so uncomfortable and dehydrated. Bottled water was a rarity in those days, so most of us carried thermos bottles which just added to our load.

Nathan Knorr was possibly the most boring speaker ever. Franz and Covington were superstars compared to him. So the Sunday afternoon talk was always hyped to the max, and was ultimately just another boring public talk using the same boring scripts. "The World is about to learn the truth. The time is short. Castro in Cuba may be the catalyst that sets off WW3 and brings on Armageddon. Are you ready? Are you pioneering? Are you serving in the highest capacity you can? Better be ready - cause Armageddon is just around the corner."

I may have attended a couple of days at one of the first Dodger Stadium conventions, and I did go to Candlestick Park in San Francisco (I believe that was 1962). But for the most part, I was already thinking about my total escape which I finally accomplished sometime around 1968. My favorite International Convention was 1958 NY in both Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds. But that was not my favorite because I was enthralled with the assembly, but rather my first real look at New York City's sites up close and personal.

JV

53

Jws and urban myths!

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

jws sure love urban myths.

the jws have their own collection built up over many years, part of their own unique worldwide jw culture.

i've come across the same ones in america that i've heard in australia, and they pass from legend to myth and finally reality as quoted from the platform.

Juan Viejo2

When my three daughters were still quite young, they would come to my house every other weekend (my visitation rights). Friday or Saturday nights, when the local TV station would play old 1950s scary movies hosted by "Seymour" or "Elvira", we would all gather around the TV with popcorn and M&Ms and watch movies like "Frankenstein" and "Dracula." During the day they would sometimes turn on The Addams Family and The Munsters. For them, that was just part of what they did when they "went to visit Daddy."

One summer when they were older but still pre-teens, they got a chance to spend several weeks with their JW grandparents in Arkansas. They were really looking forward to the trip because they loved my mom and dad very much. But after just a few days in the Ozarks, they were looking to come home.

They had to endure the three nights a week spent at the local Kingdom Hall - mostly with older adults. There were also the two or three mornings when they were all dragged along as my mom and dad went in field service. Much of the "service" time was spent driving in rural areas in a four door sedan with plastic seat covers and no air conditioning in the middle of summer. Arkansas is very pretty, but uncomfortably hot and humid in the summertime. My dad would open the front air vents but kept the windows shut so that swarms of mosquitoes and bugs would not fly into the car. The inside of the car was like a pizza oven.

So my girls looked forward to times at the house so that they could get out of the heat and watch TV. My oldest daughter would look for anything fun that they liked. When she saw reruns of "I Dream of Jeannie" and "Bewitched" she would turn to those programs. Mom or Dad would hear the TV playing and come in and change the channels, telling the girls that those shows were about magic and genies were "dressed up demons." The girls found some old horror movies on the TV a couple of times and they both got turned off quickly. Mom caught the girls watching an old movie about vampires and she made them turn if off - because "vampires are demons. If you watch those kinds of movies our house can be taken over by demons. You wouldn't want that, would you?"

When they finally got back home, I noticed a change in all of them. They suddenly did not want to watch Elvira any more. When I asked them why, they told me what their JW grandmother told them during their visit. I was OK with them not watching anything that would scare them, but I assured them that they "were just movies" and "demons are not going to take over our house." But we watched old John Wayne westerns and other classic movies instead.

It only took a few weeks for them to change their minds and want to start our normal Friday night routines again. Elvira once again became a regular visitor in our house.

As grownups, they all had similar attitudes with their own children - and my grandkids love watching all of the latest horror and special effects movies without any fear of demonic possession. Of course, none of my kids or grandkids ever wanted to follow in their grandparents' paths - they learned their lesson during that short trip. I don't think any of them have ever been back to Arkansas. I'm pretty sure that none have ever been back to a Kingdom Hall either. Lessons learned...

JV

4

Anyone Here Have Fun At The Long Beach Pike In The 1950's?

by LoisLane looking for Superman in

jw
friends

.

i remember some of the badboys/smart guys, missing the sunday talk to go on the roller coaster at the pike.. i remember what fun the old bumper cars were.. just lois .

Juan Viejo2

My mother was baptized in the huge public swimming pool building just up the beach a ways in 1952. The roller coaster at the Pike was even scarier than the one at Venice beach in Los Angles...

JV

66

Hayden Covington's unwitting role in harsh disfellowship policy

by Terry in

in the january 8, 1947 awake!

magazine the following article appeared.. .

the above article was published under the watchtower presidency of nathan knorr.

Juan Viejo2

Terry -

I'm glad this was bumped. I missed it when you started this thread over a year ago. Thanks Wulf!

I saw Hayden Covington when i was about 8 or 9 years old giving a special talk at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles. An amazing speaker, everyone was captivated by his stories and confidence that JWs were the right people at the right time engaged in the right fight. With Jehovah on our side, how could we lose? Of course, just about every young JW male between 18 and 22 went to federal prison, many right to Terminal Island (Long Beach, CA). Not one of my acquaintances escaped - except me: I was married, had a kid, bad knees and was color blind. That gave me a pass.

Every JW I knew worshipped Covington and when he was on the road with his special talks the auditoriums were jammed.

Wow - if I had only known the truth about him then...

JV

52

Are you pro-activist, anti-activist, or passive?

by cedars in

jw
friends

i ask this question because, having been on this forum for a year now, it's clear to me that there are many shades to so-called "apostasy", and this is particularly evident in the realm of anti-watchtower activism.. when i use the word "activism", likely picketing kingdom halls and conventions springs to mind.

however, activism can be far more subtle than that.

just having a website or a book that sheds light on the flaws of watchtower dogma is really a form of activism - arguably the most effective form at that.

Juan Viejo2

Mrs. Jones - you have PMs

JV

28

Committee Chairman: tell us about yourself

by crmsicl in

jw
friends

Juan Viejo2

CommitteeChairman-

Welcome to JWN, home of the sheep, wolves, and vultures of the JW universe.

I look forward to reading your posts. I have just one suggestion that may make your participation here more tolerable:

Don't try to defend or promote Watchtower doctrines or policies. Just explain them and give us your honest opinion as a human being as to their value and credibility.

Let the rest of us argue over the issues you identify or reveal. If you get involved directly, the apologists and moles will come after you with a vengeance.

CC - stay out and above the fray...

JV